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US Presidential Election afterthoughts

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US Presidential Election afterthoughts

Post by emu on Wed Nov 07, 2012 8:44 am

This is an attempt to move political discussion from the comments on Lindsey's site here. Her site should remain on topic of Lindsey and her art. (Besides, political discussions have their way of degrading into flame wars that are better kept under the ever watchful eye of Katwoman. Wink )

Leo72 and myself have stated that we think it's a good thing that Obama won. ejsacasa and Jad31 are not so happy about it.

ejsacasa wrote:
Well, I’m a bit upset today seeing as Obama won and seeing as he is obnoxiously anti-Catholic, but maybe Romney will get the job after the next four years. There is always hope in the US, that people will again realize the importance of God in our life. After all, the US is one of the most religious countries. Not like many European countries. Sorry for turning a bit sentimental, I just want to let my thoughts out. It’s been a long day.

Jad31 wrote:
this is bad for our country, obama has done so much wrong and unauthorized things that could have gotten him impeached, and a bunch of people (and i mean a lot) even addmitted to voting for him because of the color of his skin. soooooo basicly what that means is we have four looooong years ahead of us(not like the first werent long enough) to think “hey we were wrong”. Thank all of you and God bless. Smile
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Re: US Presidential Election afterthoughts

Post by emu on Wed Nov 07, 2012 8:55 am

@ejsacasa
As an "outsider" (I am from Austria) I have not been following Obama's views on religion as closely as you apparently have, but generally speaking I consider the separation of political and religious matters as one of the greater achievements of Western society. I don't think politics should favor one particular faith over any other. I'd be interested to hear what makes Obama "obnoxiously anti-Catholic" in your opinion though.

@Jad31
Can you give an example for "unauthorized things that could have gotten him impeached"? Why DIDN'T Obama get impeached then?
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Re: US Presidential Election afterthoughts

Post by Pierre Kite Robert on Wed Nov 07, 2012 9:23 am

As a European I think Obama's victory is a good thing, I am an university student (in history), it teaches us to have a political conscience and I can say that most of the people around me are sharing my opinion.
We were all worried that if Romney won, we would have a war in the world in a few months!
I may be exaggerating, but not that much!
Obama is perhaps not the best president but I think Romney would have been one of the worst.

It's just my opinion Wink and forgive me for my "bad english" :p
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Re: US Presidential Election afterthoughts

Post by hobbes on Wed Nov 07, 2012 3:41 pm

Finally a topic with some meat in it, even if it doesn't involve Lindsey. It may not be appropriate here, either, but this forum seems otherwise to be dead, so why not have a political discussion?

Frankly, my unofficial poll of my European friends show that they prefer Obama hands down. This makes sense; Obama's view of what government is far closer to the Euro model than Romney's. I was IMing with a German friend last night who stayed up until 06:30 (his time) to find out who won. I doubt I would have lasted that long had it dragged out that late here. (Back in 2000, when the election hinged on a very close Florida vote, I called it a night much earlier, and was glad I did when I woke up the next morning and they still had not declared a winner.)

OK, I'm an American -- I think most of you have already figured that out -- from the mid-west. I wasn't particularly enamoured with either candidate this time, but for different reasons. I'm not unhappy that Obama got another four years. OTOH, I think it would have been interesting to see what a Romney Presidency would have done.

I see no evidence that Obama is "anti-Catholic" other than that he disagrees with the Church on a few issues, taking the liberal line with respect to birth control and abortion.

I also don't think a Romney win would have meant "a war in the world in a few months". If we have a new war, it will likely be with Iran, and my fear is that an Israeli/Iran conflict would inevitably draw us in, too. I think it would be a very bad thing for Iran to get a nuclear bomb, and I'm just glad I'm not the one having to decide how to mitigate the threat. Unfortunately, I doubt Obama could sidestep such a conflict any more readily than Romney.

I certainly don't view Romney as a war hawk. Actually, I don't view him as the staunch conservative he campaigned as at all. He had to lean far to the right to get the backing of the very conservative Republican party, but at heart he is a moderate, and I believe he would have, as President, moved towards the center from the right wing far more readily that Obama would move the the center from the left. In the end, this non-fit with his party, and having to claim to be things he is not, may have cost him the election.

As far as impeachable offenses, I'd be interested in hearing more about this, too. One of my gripes with Obama is his use of unpiloted drones to kill "enemies of the State", but then Romney has stated he has no problem with this practice, either.

Emu, I don't know anyone else from Austria. Do you Austrians collect taxes from those citizens affiliated with a particular religion, and then distribute them to the church, as apparently the Germans do? (That would be a completely foreign concept here.)

OK, I've probably waded in deep enough. What are everyone else's opinions?
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Re: US Presidential Election afterthoughts

Post by emu on Thu Nov 08, 2012 1:24 am

@hobbes:
In Austria the churches themselves collect membership fees. This makes it more complicated than the German system, because - at least with the Catholics - the fee is calculated based on your income. So they ask you for a pay slip or otherwise "estimate" your income (not sure how they do that). I'm not paying, I left the (Catholic) church.

You are probably right about Obama's view being closer to the prevalent political views in Europe. But also, when I watched (parts of) the election debates, some of Romney's policies struck me as short-sighted. Especially when it came to energy and oil drilling. I think Romney is actually correct that more oil drilling permits would help the US economy in the next few years (during the next term), but beyond that it seems neither ecologically nor economically sensible. Obama at least gives some thought on how his decisions will affect America in the long run.
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Re: US Presidential Election afterthoughts

Post by ejsacasa on Thu Nov 08, 2012 6:55 am

Emu, what makes him "obnoxiously anti-Catholic" is the fact that he wants to force Catholic hospitals and private institutions to perform abortions and provide contraceptives. Something that is strictly frowned upon by the Church. One thing you have to realize, is that us Catholics believe life begins at conception, meaning that we believe abortion is, quite simply, murder. If you want a discussion of why we believe that, message me back, and I will gladly show you our reasons for believing this.
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Re: US Presidential Election afterthoughts

Post by hobbes on Thu Nov 08, 2012 1:18 pm

@emu: Thanks for the explanation of how churches raise funds in Austria. Here, it is less cut-and-dried: Generally, adherents "pledge" an amount they are willing to pay to the church over the course of a year and the church plans accordingly. That's the way typical mainstream Protestant denominations do it. I can't speak to the Catholics, as I am not one, but I have heard stories of Priests telling his parishioners what they "owed" and having it not well received. And, then, there are the Mormons who apparently insist on a literal 10% tithe -- something which Romney apparently adheres to. But, the government never gets directly involved, except that we can write off these donations on our taxes.

Yes, everyone agrees that burning carbon-based fuels is wrecking the world's environment, but unfortunately, it is *still* quite economically viable, and as long as it remains so it's going to be hard to get away from this energy source. This is compounded by the fact that we have a real trade deficit problem in the US, and over half of it is due to our importation of foreign oil. And, the reliance on foreign oil results in our having unhealthy economic interests in the Middle East. At the same time we have a huge supply of fossil fuel in the ground here which at current prices and modern extraction techniques has become viable to harvest. The prevailing notion is that this is the time to use our oil reserves -- that it will improve our trade deficit while putting us on the road to energy independence, which would be good for everyone. Unfortunately, economy almost always trumps ecology, and the big loser is the environment. Even Obama claims increased domestic oil production as one of his accomplishments, although he has been more sensitive towards environmental issues than a Romney administration would likely be. I don't see a solution to global warming: Until we can get everyone on board, no one is going to be willing to bear the costs of going it alone.
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Re: US Presidential Election afterthoughts

Post by hobbes on Thu Nov 08, 2012 1:30 pm

@ejsacasa: OK, I see where you are coming from. This springs from the health care law which was passed three years ago and which is now known as "Obamacare". I'm not aware of any requirement that a hospital perform abortions, but there is a requirement in the law that health care plans provide contraceptives. And, of course that puts employers like the Roman Catholic Church in a tough situation. The Obamacare solution is to in effect tell the Church "pretend you aren't paying for the contraceptives, and that the insurance company is providing them for free", but I agree, this sleight of hand really fools nobody. I think the church has a legitimate grievance here.
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Re: US Presidential Election afterthoughts

Post by ejsacasa on Thu Nov 08, 2012 5:55 pm

@hobbes: Thank you for agreeing. Although you have to realize that, even though he has not made Catholic hospitals be required to perform abortions, he has already mentioned that this is something he really wants to do. Whether he is able to or not is up to Congress.
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Re: US Presidential Election afterthoughts

Post by Robert Percy on Wed Nov 21, 2012 12:06 pm

I followed the news on some of it, and from what i heard about both people, Obama was the better one for a job, he may have not done everything he promised in his first term, but the economy for all of us in our country's has proven to be problematic for each and every one of us, a second term might let him do much more for the US.
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